Finding Purpose in Advocacy

Episode 1

Sam Heninger:

Welcome to Advocating for Dads with Jana Jones. I'm Sam Henniger, and I'm excited to meet Jana today. We're going to get started. Jana, tell us about your story and what inspired you to become a family law attorney, mainly focusing on advocating for fathers.

Jana Jones:

Yeah. So, Phylicia Rashad on The Cosby Show inspired me to become an attorney. I've always admired her. And she was like a TV mom to me. And I just wanted to be like her. So, the law has been something I wanted to pursue since I was young. Once I entered law school, I became interested in family law but have yet to take a course. When I got out and decided to open up my firm in 2009 and needed to figure out what I would do, I started talking to some attorneys in town. One prominent African-American family law attorney was Billie Ellerbe, and he became my mentor when I first started practicing. And so I fell in love with family law from there.

As an undergrad, I went to Chapel Hill. Go Tar Heels! I studied sociology, and I have always found people fascinating. I'm an introvert, but I find groups of people and stories about people fascinating. And I love to read and be nosy. I find people fascinating. And I was so practicing law made sense. Once I went into undergrad, I knew ultimately that I wanted to attend law school. I decided to pick a major that was going to be interesting. And sociology is that. It's the study of people, the study of people at different points in their lives. It was an excellent preparation for the practice of law more than studying in law school. So, from a sociology background, I studied law at North Carolina Central University. And that is where I got my law degree.

Sam Heninger:

I'm a psychology grad, so studying people is endlessly fascinating. I'm interested to hear more about your mentoring relationship before entering family law and what inspired you to start helping fathers specifically.

Jana Jones:

Yeah, so when it comes to family law, you're dealing with divorce, you're dealing with custody, you're dealing with child support. It might be adoptions. There are juvenile parts of it, which are abuse and neglect. Family law can be a substantial myriad area of things. And many times, people think it includes things like estate planning, wills, trusts, and so on. And that is a separate area of law. It's more of an estate planning side of things. But in any event, throughout all those different kinds of pockets, my niche became custody because, to me, children are the most important thing to fight about, right?

Money comes and goes. Relationships hopefully last forever, but sometimes they don't. But your children are your children. They're your blood. And if there's anything worth fighting over, it's the kids. And so that's the catalyst and the drive behind why I do what I do and why it's the most important thing to me.

Regarding my dad specifically, my parents had a rough relationship. They were married for the majority of my childhood and adulthood. However, it was not a good marriage; my dad was not a good husband. He was an incredible father to me, though. My mother, even though she was very frustrated with the husband that my father was, never tried to speak down about my dad to me and the relationship that we had. She always supported that. She knew I was a daddy's girl and didn't envy that. She understood because she had been a daddy's girl herself as a child. And so it's just really monumental, the impact fathers make on their children, especially their daughters. And if I can be a part of making sure that I can protect that, I want to be.

Sam Heninger:

Tell more of this story about how you stepped into that through that mentor of yours.

Jana Jones:

Yeah. So, when I decided to open my firm, I spoke to another prominent African-American attorney, James Ferguson. He asked me what I was interested in. And I said, well, I think family law. Bille Ellerbe was at the top of the list. He gave him a call and said, hey, I got a new attorney here. She's interested in family law. Billie said, send her over. And the rest was history. He took me under his wing. He let me practice on some of his cases, sit in on consultations, and sit in court. When he had hearings, I represented one of his clients in a hearing so that he could get some practice. So, he rolled it out for me and helped me understand what being a family law attorney is like.

Sam Heninger:

And what would you say thinking about this? There are certainly a lot of horror stories when it comes to dads and how these things can play out in the courts. And so I'd like to know what misconceptions or challenges you've encountered when advocating for fathers in family law cases.

Jana Jones:

Well, I've been fortunate. Here in Mecklenburg County, where I practice family law exclusively, the judges are very thoughtful, and there is not the old-fashioned, well, since the kids are young or mom is mom, the kids should be with mom, and dad should just get some kind of visitation. That is not the standard. Generally speaking, the judges see the parents as equals and want to hear the facts and circumstances regarding which schedule will be the most appropriate. So I'm fortunate in that I'm not fighting bigotry, right, or sexism, kind of the reverse of what we usually experience. But it is still important because a lot of times, you know, women are detail-oriented, right? And so, it's essential to highlight the things that fathers do that may not be detail-oriented but are just as important from a different perspective. And so I always ensure that I illustrate that in any trial before a judge.

Sam Heninger:

What strategies have you used to help fathers navigate child custody and visitation disputes?

Jana Jones:

The most important thing to assure fathers of is that they are parents with equal rights to mom. A lot of times, there is a general assumption that mom is just going to get custody and he's going to get some visitation schedule, and it is just what it is, and it's not worth fighting for. And a lot of times, sometimes, well, I wouldn't say a lot of times, but sometimes my dad's come in with that assumption. And I quickly tell them that that's not the case. We can get that for you if that is what you want. But if you're looking for joint or primary custody, that may be worth fighting for. And you shouldn't just assume that you'll never be able to get it. Again, facts and circumstances have much to do with how cases play out. But generally speaking, the first thing that I want to make sure is that dads understand that they are equal parents. There's a constitutionally protected right to be a parent. And that means parent, not mom, not dad, parent, period.

Sam Heninger:

What do you do to help ensure fair treatment of fathers in the legal system regarding things like child support and parenting time?

Jana Jones:

So, North Carolina calculates child support based on the parties' gross incomes. If you've got two parents that are W-2 employees, that's pretty straightforward. You're looking at pay stubs; you're looking at year-to-date. If you've got someone who is a business owner, things can get more complicated if you get someone who works under the table, that gets more complicated. So, there are mechanisms that the law gives us to try to find that kind of financial information, but everything could be better. And I tell folks, if they getting away with it with the IRS, they'll probably get away with it in state court in Mecklenburg County. We're not detectives. I went to law school. I did not get an MBA. I don't like math. I can't find money. However, there are mechanisms in the legal system that allow us to get more of that type of information. When it comes to fathers who may be paying child support, the most important thing is to make sure that their income is calculated correctly and that, assuming it's mom, mom's income is calculated correctly.

Sam Heninger:

Can you tell me more about how you work in mediation regarding these disputes, especially when advocating for your dad's clients?

Jana Jones:

Yeah, so I'm a real big proponent of mediation. In litigation, you hand facts and circumstances to a neutral third party. Depending on the case's complexity, they will hear your facts and circumstances for an hour or two to a few days. And then they're going to decide that issues concerning the rest of your life. And no matter what kind of case you put on, no judge will ever know everything. They can't. And then the rules of evidence don't even let us bring in some things, right? Sometimes, that ruling doesn't reflect what's fair. With mediation, there's more leeway to work towards a fair agreement. And that ultimately helps everybody move past this new stage and turn over a new leaf. I just had a mediation earlier this week, and we were able to settle all of the issues that were pending. So we don't have to worry about prosecuting his case. And that's a significant relief to him. That's a savings to him. It's far more expensive to litigate than it is to meditate. The parties could hear each other because a neutral voice went back and forth between the rooms, telling that person's side of things. And the emotion you have when trying to talk to your ex-partner about anything contentious isn't there with the neutral because there's no emotional connection. It's just the facts. Sometimes, when people can hear the facts, they can move past specific hurts that will cause them to make decisions much more based on emotion than what's in their best interest.

Sam Heninger:

That makes a lot of sense. I see the value of having a mediator to keep things cool. What you might say is your human touch because you're dealing with clients going through one of the most stressful things a person can go through. And so while mediation occurs, and it's great to have that cool head to help you make better decisions, how else do you operate with your clients human to human?

Jana Jones:

Yeah, so the first step in hiring me is always a consultation. And what I tell folks is that's just a conversation. I'm taking some notes, but I'm not taking copious notes. I'm trying to understand your perspective and what you want to happen. Somebody may be contacting me about a violation of an order and their options for that. But what they want is a different order altogether, right? And you have to listen to those things to dig deep and find out what they're looking for. And so that consultation is the beginning of the relationship. I believe in communication.

I've got to work on cases, I've got to go to court, I've got mediations, etc. but I try to be accessible via email and get back to folks within at least a business day or two, assuming that there's not something I'm already scheduled for so they can get their questions answered. Communication is monumental when it comes to these types of legal matters. Things can change on a dime. You know, you may come to me, and you wanted one thing. Some time passes, and now you want something different. And so it's essential to communicate that update to your counsel. Communication is at the top of the list.

Sam Heninger:

What advice would you give fathers facing these legal challenges regarding their parental rights?

Jana Jones:

The first thing to do is to get a consultation. Know your rights and have a third party tell you that. Sometimes, again, they need to hear that they're entitled to time, right? Whatever they did, however, the relationship ended; whoever's a fault it may have been, they're still the parent, and that child still needs them. So it's essential to hear that and get some actionable items from that consultation. I tell a lot of my dads to reclaim your time. I often see dads get bullied into a schedule, and the challenge is how long that schedule has been going on. From the court's perspective, they're not there to determine what's fair to mom or dad, or mom and mom, or dad and dad. They are there to determine what is in the child's best interest. And so if that child has become accustomed to a schedule where dad is only seeing the child every other weekend, for instance, and that's gone on for six months or a year, you've got a real uphill battle to prove to a court that it's going to be in the child's best interest to change up that schedule. Is that fair to Dad? No, right? He wants more time than that. Maybe he's been asking for more time than that, and Mom just hasn't been willing to give it to him. But the sooner, the better. So obviously, try to work things out amongst yourselves. There are plenty of cases in the legal system, and you want to avoid jumping in that line if you can. But if it cannot be avoided, you can best set yourself up for success by reclaiming your time. So, mom's entitled to her time. You're entitled to the same time. Do not let mom bully you into a schedule.

Sam Heninger:

Are there any other little pieces there? Making sure you use what you have helps prevent further complications. What else might a dad be thinking about more effectively in terms of keeping what he wants or getting more of what he wants by the time he gets a lawyer involved?

Jana Jones:

Document everything. Again, evidence is essential if we're going down the litigation road. So, your testimony is always your most important piece of evidence. You want to be credible. You want to be honest. You want to be factual. But you want exhibits that support the testimony that you're given. And if you are being accused of never reaching out to spend time with the children, you want to show text messages and emails reaching out to mom saying, hey, I'd like to get the kids this weekend. Can I pick them up from school? I'd like to take them to see this family member during the summer. You want to have that kind of documentation. So, along with reclaiming your time, you want to document everything.

Sam Heninger:

Jana, what motivates you to continue advocating for dads in the legal field

Jana Jones:

It is my clients. You know, I've had a lot of success with my business, but I've had a lot of referrals. I have a lot of repeat business-- dads that we get custody orders, and then, unfortunately, mom won't follow it. Now we're back in court dealing with the contempt. Those relationships make me so happy because I know that their relationships with those children are so vital to them and so crucial to those kids. And that balance of having them in their lives along with mom will make for a much more positive and resilient adult, right? And that's what we want to see in the world. We want the next generation to do better than us.

Sam Heninger:

Jana, I appreciate what you've shared with us. I remember that you mentioned how your relationship with your dad was so important to you just earlier in this conversation. That was one of the golden threads that led you through your life. I'd love to hear more about that relationship and how you see that coming up in your work as you're working with these dads who have kids, and you were your father's daughter, and seeing that relationship play out in other lives.

Jana Jones:

Yeah. So, you know, as a young child, my dad was my hero. He could do no wrong. I got older. I started understanding the dynamics of what was going on in my parent's relationship, and I could see things from my mom's side. But again, as I mentioned, my mom never shared any of that kind of stuff with me, never vented to me about that kind of stuff. She probably rolled her eyes plenty of times without looking at me with some things I would say because I was always Team Dad.

Nevertheless, our relationship was excellent. He was a cab driver when I was young, so he worked nights. My mom was a secretary, so she worked days. And so I remember in the summers, he would tell me, all right, baby, let me get some sleep. And then, once he woke up late in the morning, we would swim at the aquatic center or we would go to the park and fly kites. We would get Pringles, stare at the clouds, and discuss what shapes we saw. He taught me how to play dominoes. We had a great bond and a great relationship. And part of that was because my mom was so supportive of it. Again, they had a very tumultuous relationship. I heard far more than I should have when it came to arguments. I knew they were not happy, but it never affected the relationship that my dad and I had.

Sam Heninger:

Tell me more about how you see that coming up in the families you work with.

Jana Jones:

Yeah, so I think that once the relationship goes south, whoever feels aggrieved or like the victim in the relationship wants to use the kids to punish the other parent. And that's not to say that the dads are always the ones cheating, but if you're in that kind of classic scenario and that's what's going on, then I think sometimes moms forget that it's not about you; it's about the kids. And if he's a good dad, that should be all that matters. You're done with him, and you should be, right? But those children still need a father. They still have a father. And if that father is ready, willing, and able to be a part of their lives, you don't want to stand in the way. You never know what effect that might have on them later in life. And your kids are supposed to be the most important thing. So you must push past that hurt, think about the bigger picture, and focus on the kids. And if you're focusing on the kids, you're always going to make the right decision for the kids. If you're focusing on your hurt or the betrayal, you start making decisions based on emotion, not what's best for the kids.

Sam Heninger:

Jana, I just want to thank you again. You highlighted a couple of practical pieces of advice for dads in these types of situations. I appreciate you sharing some of your motivation and story, particularly about thinking about what's best for the kids.

Jana Jones:

Well, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it, Sam.

Sam Heninger:

This has been Advocating for Dads with Jana Jones. I'm Sam Henninger. Please like, subscribe, and follow us because we'll have a lot more great conversations like this. Thank you.
Sam Heninger:

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Dispelling Myths-Understanding Child Custody Dynamics

Episode 2

Sam Heninger:

Welcome to Advocating for Dads with Jana Jones . I'm Sam Henninger, and I'm excited to have another conversation with Jana. We're going to kick things off with: Jana, you practice family law. You're advocating for dads. I want to understand a bit more. You can lay this out in straightforward terms: the differences between physical and legal custody when it comes to child custody and how each type impacts the child and parents.

Jana Jones :

Yeah, so they are different. That's the first thing to note. They get interchanged a lot, but they are technically two other issues. So legal custody is decision-making authority, okay? So it's not where the kid's residing; it's simply decisions related to the child. So those can be things like what religion they practice, where they go to school, what procedure they get, what language they learn, any decisions related to the child, whether they have a passport. Things of that nature are going to be legal custody.

On the other hand, physical custody is where the child resides. In North Carolina, everything is based on overnights. So when we're talking about primary or joint custody, the magic number as of this recording in 2024, because things may change, is 123 overnights. Once you hit that number, you have shared or joint physical custody. If you're at 122 or less, you have visitation, and the other parent has primary physical custody.

Sam Heninger:

What other misunderstandings or lack of knowledge do parents have about this distinction in legal and physical custody arrangements?

Jana Jones: 

So I would say with legal, I think it's important to note that most judges are going to come off the assumption that joint legal is going to be in the child or children's best interest, which means that both parents should be able to equally contribute to decisions related to the child, regardless of the physical custody arrangement. So if you have one parent who has every other weekend and the other parent has primary physical custody, the parent who has every other weekend has just as much say in what religion a child practices, what school a child attends, what medical procedure a child has as the parent who has primary physical custody. Many things can come up when making decisions about kids, and you can't go to court every time you disagree. So what we generally have in many orders is a tiebreaker decision-making authority or a mechanism that gets triggered when it's time to make those decisions, and the parents cannot agree. So when you have a joint legal custody arrangement, the parents should talk to each other about those decisions, go back and forth, weigh the pros and cons, and come together to decide. But if it turns out that one parent wants one thing and the other parent wants the other, and there's joint legal custody, that decision-making authority, if one parent has it, will be what breaks that tie. Other options available are mediation or arbitration. Mediation is where a neutral third party goes back and forth between the parties to express what the other side is saying to see if they can help them facilitate an agreement. An arbitrator is an attorney, but they act as a judge. And so you put on evidence, as each parent puts on evidence, and the arbitrator decides about whatever the parents disagree over. So, say you're trying to figure out which school the child will attend in the fall, and you can't agree. Dad wants one school, and Mom wants another. If your custody order says that you have joint legal custody and if you can't agree that you have to go to arbitration, then each parent is going to have to put their case in front of the arbitrator as to why the school they want is going to be in that child's best interest. Ultimately, the arbitrator will decide which school the child should attend.

Sam Heninger:

How do visitation and one parent having primary physical custody work together?

Jana Jones :

That 123 number is the magic number when it comes to custody. So, 123 overnights shifts you from a joint to a primary custody arrangement. If you both have 123 or more, the parent have joint custody. If you have 122 or less, you have visitation, and the other parent has primary custody.

Sam Heninger:

Is that determined by what the parents do, or is that decided more by the court order?

Jana Jones :

Right. So it depends on where the parties are at. Sometimes, people operate for several years without getting the court involved. And then something happens that precipitates the need for custody or something more formal. Other times, parties who split and have children immediately go into the court system to get a custody order. So when dealing with those issues, you want to get as much time as possible as the parent. You want to make sure that you are getting the time that you deserve and that you wish. And if you need more time, you must file a court case.

Sam Heninger:

What other considerations should parents keep in mind when it comes to negotiating custody agreements outside of court?

Jana Jones :

So it's essential to focus on the children, not what you want, but what is best for your child. So, if you work the third shift, getting up with the kids to get to school or extracurriculars will be challenging. They will miss out on some of that because of your schedule. If they're with you, that's something you must consider when figuring out what kind of custody arrangement is best for your children. Also, you know, co-parenting is so essential. When parents split up, they're generally not happy with one another. Somebody's done something wrong, maybe both of them have, who knows, but they're not happy anymore. But it doesn't negate that they've got kids together; those kids still have things they need, including both of them. So, the most important thing you can do is focus on the children.

Sam Heninger :

Give us an idea of what those conversations or considerations look like when considering the child's best interests.

Jana Jones:

So, generally, what is it that you want to see happen? What schedule do you want to use? If you were writing the order, what would it look like? I believe in starting there. And then I believe in being honest. I'm a straight shooter. So if I think that the schedule they're saying they want doesn't make sense with the lifestyle or maybe the work schedule that they have, then I'm willing to have those hard conversations and make sure that they're prepared in front of a judge to explain why maybe something a little bit unconventional is still going to work and is still going to be in that child's best interest.

Sam Heninger :

How can parents collaborate to create a co-parenting plan that supports their child's well-being despite differences in physical or legal custody arrangements?

Jana Jones:

The most significant thing parents can do is put their differences aside and try to be as objective as possible when figuring out what's best for their children. If it will be more practical for the child to follow a specific schedule, then that's the schedule that the parents need to consider as being the best to implement.

Sam Heninger  :

Could you relate a successful case you've had recently or just a notable one that illustrates parents working together to develop the best solution for their kids?

Jana Jones:

I am a firm believer in getting a case settled if we can. My general premise when working with a parent is that I have them fill out a questionnaire that gives me a lot of detail and information. As mentioned in the first podcast, the first step is always a consultation. And I'm taking some notes, but I need to take copious notes. I'm getting a feel for what you're trying to do and give you some value, information, and next steps because not everybody can hire me. And some people may not be able to hire me yet because they've got plans, but something still needs to change, right? They're just trying to be proactive and get information. I'm not spending a lot of time taking copious notes. Once they become a client, everyone receives a questionnaire to fill out. That's where they gave me a lot of detail and information that I use to draft pleadings and a proposed consent order because it's always worth trying to see if you can settle something amongst yourselves instead of throwing it in front of a judge and hoping for the best. Right? So, in the consent order piece, my client and I go back and forth to craft an order based on what we want to see. And then we will present that to the other side, whether they're represented or not, to see if we can resolve it. Sometimes, we can because the other side is closer to things than my client thought. And we can work towards something that they are both happy with.

Sam Heninger  :

Jana, what challenges do parents commonly face during child custody battles, and how does having legal counsel benefit them?

Jana Jones :

Information is power. I believe that the biggest issue that a lot of parents have with these custody cases is not knowing what they don't know, not understanding how the law in North Carolina works, and not understanding that a judge is supposed to determine the best interest, not what's fair to anybody, but what's in the best interest of the child or children. And like any job, anybody else does, you know what you do because this is what you do for a living. I practice law for a living. Most of my clients do not. Therefore, they must know the complexities of dealing with the legal system, policies, and procedures. And this is about something other than being smart. It's about having information. So, I always recommend that anybody going through these issues get a consultation because you need to know what you don't know.

Sam Heninger :

I particularly appreciate that because I think for most lay people who have not interacted with the courts or law in general, except when they need to as a client, there's generally quite a big difference between what somebody thinks as just the just and fair and common sense thing to do and what the law can provide.

Jana Jones:

Exactly. I often tell my clients they will never be able to prosecute their ex into being a better person. That is not the power of the court system. Who you have is who you have. We can put some parameters on what that schedule looks like and give you guys some footing on what to expect, give the child some stability, and give you some structure to make plans, vacations, et cetera, with the children, without the children. That is what the court can do. The court cannot fix the relationship. That is not the court's job, nor is the court inclined to. That's for therapy. We are here to create orders. It's important to know that when you're in this situation. If you're hoping that getting the courts involved will help your co-parent relationship, that may or may not be the case. But what going into the court system will get you is an order one way or the other. And at least everybody knows what the ground rules are at that point.

Sam Heninger:

What would you say about giving an excellent synopsis of how first interactions work with you with this initial consultation and then coming on as a client, what that questionnaire involves, and how to get started there? What else might you say regarding expectation setting, giving a general timeline, or what to expect next? And how do you set their expectations there?

Jana Jones:

Yeah, so it depends on where you are in a case. If we're starting a brand new action, we're starting with a summons and a complaint. Those are the basics and the basic pleadings of any custody lawsuit. So you will need to know the address of the other party. That can sometimes be a challenge. The relationship may be strained. You may not know their address for various reasons. Attorneys don't fine people. That's what private investigators are for. So you're going to need that information. That's part of the questionnaire, and we can only file something if we have an address. If you have a work address, that could work. Suppose they get their mail at their mom's house. You can serve them there. We can try, at least. Mom may not sign for it, but we can try. But you do have to have an address. That is one of those practical things that many folks need to realize. And so it's one thing to remember as you're starting one of these types of cases. Once we have the information we need in that questionnaire, I start drafting the complaint, assuming we're starting a brand new case. And anything I draft will be sent to my client for approval before anything is filed. So once we have their approval, we make whatever tweaks or edits we need to get that approval, then file and send it out for service. Service is the next big sticker. The court only recognizes that you have a lawsuit once the other side has been served, and they must be adequately served. So that's not shooting them an email. That is filing something with the court that proves they have gotten that service in the way the law requires. So, generally, it will be a certified mail return receipt requested. That green card has to come back with a signature. The defendant can accept service in a couple of different ways. They can draft an acceptance of service. Recently, North Carolina has updated the summons, so you can, as the defendant, sign the second page and accept service that way. Then, sheriffs can serve people, and private process servers can also serve folks. So, there are two things to keep in mind. While they're not sexy, they're essential. You need to know the address and be prepared to deal with the service issue, and understand that that must be done correctly before anything else can start.

Sam Heninger :

I appreciate that. Spelling out these steps before things can get started helps paint a realistic picture of how these things can take time. As we conclude, I'd like another piece of advice you offer to parents who are beginning to navigate these child custody matters and may be unsure where to start or what to expect.

Jana Jones:

The first step is always a consultation. No matter what, you don't know what you don't know. So, the first step is consultation. You should come out of a consultation with any attorney with an action plan, knowing what your next steps are and what's realistic. It's essential to be honest with people. And tell them if their expectations or what they're trying to do are unlikely to happen. So be ready for that. If you're going to somebody to tell you what you want to hear, that will not necessarily serve you well. You're going to want to get some honest information and be able to make an informed decision. So, in conclusion, get a consultation.

Sam Heninger:

Thank you again so much, Jana. I learned a lot, and our listeners did, too.

Jana Jones:

Thank you.

Sam Heninger:

This has been Advocating for Dads with Jana Jones. I'm Sam Henninger. Please like, share, and subscribe to continue having these great conversations.,

Advice for Parents: Prioritizing Child Well-being in Custody Disputes

Episode 3

Sam Henninger:

Welcome to Advocating for Dads with Janna Jones. I'm Sam Henninger, and I'm really excited to jump into a conversation today with Janna. We're going to first start with something that we had been talking about in previous episodes. Let me ask you, Janna, what factors are considered when determining the child's best interest in custody disputes and how do parental involvement, stability and capabilities play a role in that?

Jana Jones:

There are factors that the court is always going to consider when they're looking at the best interest of the child or children. I would say the biggest thing that judges are looking for is stability. For example, they’re looking to see if there is appropriate housing for the children. They want to know if there are any issues with safety for the children. They want to see who's being supportive of the children's education. Is one parent or the other getting the child to school late? Or is the child missing school altogether in their care? Then I would say, the court is looking at other tangible things like extracurriculars and support when it comes to therapy. They also want to see what parent is really working towards a harmonious co-parenting relationship with the other one. A parent who is facilitating visitation with the other parent is always going to be appreciated by a judge. That's telling the judge that you recognize that regardless of why your relationship ended, the relationship with the children and that other parent is still important. So, as you can see, there are really a number of things that the court is considering when they're thinking about the best interest of the children.

Sam Henninger:

Maybe you could share some examples of how parental involvement positively impacts a child's well-being during and after a custody dispute.

Jana Jones:

Being involved is important. Does the parent want to spend time with the kids? When it's time for the child to go to that parent, is that parent actually getting the child? There are circumstances where you have a parent requesting time and claiming they're not getting time. Then when it's time to go, they flake. That lack of involvement is definitely something that the court is going to take note of when they're considering what kind of custody schedule is going to be the most appropriate and in the children's best interest.

Sam Henninger:

How do you work with parents to create personalized plans that address their unique family dynamics and prioritize their children's needs?

Jana Jones:

As I mentioned in a previous episode, I have a questionnaire that I have my parents fill out before we start drafting anything at all. I do this so that I can get a lot more details about what's been going on, what's worked well and what hasn't. I want to know from their perspective, what they think their best evidence is, which may or may not be true. Sometimes things like specific religions and holidays are going to be really important. Additionally, generally, we think about average American holidays. When we're talking about the major holidays, most judges are going to go to consider Christmas and Thanksgiving. But let’s say you are Jewish. Christmas might mean nothing to you. Right? If that is the case, then the Jewish holidays are going to be far more important. When I have that information it helps me advocate for what it is that each unique family finds important and what each particular parent wants to see in a custody order.

Sam Henninger:

Could you spend a bit of time walking the listeners through a bit of what the questionnaire that you use looks like?

Jana Jones:

At the beginning, I don't know a lot of basic information. Therefore, the first thing in my questionnaire is going to go back to what we talked about in that previous podcast, which is the name and address of the opposing party. We have to know who we're serving and we have to get them properly served before anything can really get started. The next thing that I'm going to need is the names and dates of birth of each of the children. It's very important to know that information and to have the correct spelling.

I've actually seen cases where someone didn't have the correct spelling of their own child's name. That doesn't look great in court. You want to make sure that information is accurate. In our custody complaint and answer and counterclaim, North Carolina requires that we list where the child or children have residing for the past five years. That's called an affidavit as to the status of the minor child. One of my questions then is, where have the children resided for the past five years? Obviously, if you're dealing with a child that is under five, then you're going to be dealing with birth to present. I am then going to ask, what kind of custody arrangement is my client hoping to achieve. I’m asking for specifics. Again, I want people to fill out my questionnaire like they're the ones writing the order because I need that kind of detail to know what I'm specifically asking for. Also, when I'm drafting the consent order, that helps me be a lot more efficient in crafting an order that reflects what the parent actually wants. Lastly, I'm asking for any evidence that the parent may have to support the custody order that they would like to see be implemented. For example, it could be if they feel like the other parent has done something to put the child in danger, or is not getting the child to school on time, or has done something inappropriate to the child. That’s the kind of information I need. Also, if there's evidence that backs that up, that's when they would give me that information.

Sam Henninger:

My mom and dad split up, and then my dad moved out of state. My sister and I got to visit him during the summer. I guess that might be one of the arrangements that parents and kids would come to. However, maybe you can offer some of what you have seen when it comes to creative solutions or strategies that you recommend for long-distance parenting and arrangements that involve technology-assisted visitation. I know that FaceTime and Zoom are a lot more prevalent now with the intent to maintain a strong parent-child relationship.

Jana Jones:

That's what you're trying to do, is to maintain that relationship regardless. I'm thinking about some of my clients who are in the military that I've represented in custody cases. That can be particularly challenging. They don't get to choose where they're going. They aren't choosing to be away from their children. They are called to a higher purpose and they have a job to do and that job might take them across the world. Technology, thankfully, really gives you a chance to still foster that relationship. For parents that are far apart, that communication provision in an order is going to really be important. Obviously, it's not meant to control the custodial parent's life. They still have things going on and they can't just drop everything for calls or FaceTimes or Skypes, et cetera. However, if we have something in place where everybody knows what the expectation is, it is going to give the children time to foster that relationship with the parent that's far away. We want to take advantage of the fact that we have the technology that allows us to do that. When it comes to the physical custody arrangements for parents that are far apart, generally speaking, someone’s going to have to have primary custody and someone is going to have to have visitation. If you have one parent living on one side of the country and the other parent is on the other side of the country, a joint custody arrangement is not really going to be practical. The closest way you can get to that is probably holidays and then an entire summer. That may or may not work for the family. Obviously, the parent who has the child during the school year wants to have some fun with them during the summer too. So, it wouldn't necessarily be fair to take all that time in the summer. However, that's probably the closest way to get to some semblance of a joint custody arrangement when parties are that far apart.

Sam Henninger:

What other common challenges do you see parents face when it comes to navigating these visitation arrangements? And how can legal counsel help address these challenges effectively?

Jana Jones:

Well, I think the biggest thing that I do as an attorney is give people facts. I'm not emotionally invested in the situation. I haven't been hurt or I haven't hurt the other party. I can be much more objective in evaluating what is and isn't likely to work as it relates to what the custody schedule is going to be and what the court may feel is in the best interest of the child or children. I think the most important thing that an attorney can do, is to give you unbiased factual information. Then you take that with obviously a lot of emotions that come with co-parenting, and figure out how you want to move forward from there.

Sam Henninger:

How do you handle conflicts such as noncompliance with visitation agreements and denial of visitation or attempts at parental alienation?

Jana Jones:

When it comes to a custody order, each party is supposed to follow that order. If you have violated a provision of that order, then the offending party can be found in contempt. However, you have to file a motion in order for a judge to make a determination as to whether or not there has been willful noncompliance with the provision and if they can find them in contempt. 

There are a couple different types of contempt. There's civil and there's criminal. I won't go into all of that because it will probably bore your listeners to death. However, to kind of make it simple, there has to be a specific provision in an order that someone is violating in order for the court to find them in contempt. Now, before you're even going down that road, the benefit to having a custody order is that you can get law enforcement involved to help execute that order. For instance, a visitation happened and one parent was supposed to get the other child at 6 p.m. on a particular day. That time comes and goes and the party doesn’t show up to the exchange location. You can then reach out to law enforcement and ask them to help you get your child back because you have a custody order that says that you're entitled to that time with the child. That is the power of having a custody order, along with the fact that after the situation happens, you have the ability to punish the parent who has violated a provision by asking that they be held in contempt of court.

Sam Henninger:

It sounds like it is important to have a good plan and if you have an order, you have ways to enforce it. I think a lot of people might worry about what they can do if the other party doesn't follow through.

Jana Jones:

Absolutely. Any order is going to be enforceable by the contempt powers of the court. In other words, you have the ability to go into court and ask that the judge hold that other party in contempt for failure to comply with the court's order.

Sam Henninger:

I'm just curious. What does that timeline usually look like when filing that motion and getting a decision?

Jana Jones:

The motion is going to take as long as it takes to get it drafted and filed. The question is, when do you get a court date? And that is something we don't know. Once we file, it goes to family court and eventually makes it to a judge and they put a date on it. Then, they will tell us what it's going to be. Sometimes that will be within a few weeks. While other times it can take a few months. There are so many things that come into play with how quickly you can get a court date. The majority of them have absolutely nothing to do with the parties or the attorney. That is the inner workings of family court.

Sam Henninger:

You know this better than I, but my first thought then would be if there's cause for one motion, there might be cause for more than one motion before a court date gets set. If so, do you see that happen?

Jana Jones:

When it comes to everything in this country with the legal system, it's about notice. As I've said in some previous podcasts, you've got to have notice before anything really gets going. It's the same thing with contempt. The judge is going to look at the four corners, we call it, of your motion for contempt. They will review everything that you're alleging. It’s all up for grabs as a potential finding for contempt. However, things that are outside of that, meaning things that may have happened before that you didn't list in the motion or things that have happened since you filed the motion, are not going to be a part of that court date. You can, however, potentially file an amended notice, if time allows for that. Otherwise, assuming you get a court hearing before any type of amended pleading has been filed and the other side has been given proper notice of it, then you're going to be going with the motion that you filed originally. You can file subsequent motions. However one thing I want people to always know about contempts is, it can be a vicious cycle. Let's say, for instance, we file a contempt action, the party gets found in contempt of a civil order, they have to pay attorney's fees. If the court says this is something that shouldn't have happened, you have the ability to comply, and the judge is going to  make you pay the attorney's fees because of it. If that party doesn't pay the attorney's fees, then what do you do? Now you have got to file another contempt on that order, saying they had to pay attorney's fees. It can become a vicious cycle. Generally speaking, unless the facts are particularly egregious, what I have noticed in my experience is the court doesn't put people in jail, not the first time around anyway. It has to be pretty bad for them to do that. Unfortunately, what you find yourself in is, this revolving door before anything happens that makes that person feel like they've been made whole. That can be a lot of anxiety, angst, court dates and money to get there.

Sam Henninger:

Given your role in this entire process, which has its place, you're not necessarily getting much involved with the lives of people outside of these particular activities. What I'm hearing you say is you need to have a clear plan in these situations.

Jana Jones:

Absolutely. Just because it can be litigated doesn't mean it should be. Right? You have to weigh your pros and cons. It's that kind of return on investment that you want to consider. Is it worth the expense financially? Is it worth the stress of the court date? Contempt cases can have ramifications with the children as well. If you're trying to put mom or dad in jail, how's your child going to feel about that? How's that going to affect your relationship with your child? There's a lot of considerations that parties need to do some soul searching on before they go down that road. Then, you need to be prepared to maybe do it a few times before anything really sticks.

Sam Henninger:

Janna, what concluding advice would you give to our listeners, given these can be some pretty sticky situations?  

Jana Jones:

I would say in conclusion, the law cannot fix everything. Again, the law cannot litigate your ex into being a better person. They're not going to change them. You need to understand the role of the law is to put guardrails up. I kind of think of it like bowling. You put those little things up that keep you from going into the gutter. That's what the law does. The law does not guarantee a strike. It guarantees that the ball doesn't fall in the gutter. To the extent that you and your ex can work together to try to figure out some common ground, do so. Otherwise, you may end up in court with an order that neither one of you is happy with. To the extent that you're able to, consider those things before you get into litigation, and then once you're in it to know what is realistic. That's probably the most important piece of advice I can give.

Sam Henninger:

Janna, thank you again for this wonderful wisdom that you give us and the expertise that you share as an advocate for dads.

Jana Jones:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Sam.

Sam Henninger:

This has been Advocating for Dads with Janna Jones. I'm Sam Henninger. Remember to subscribe, share, follow, because we're going to continue having these great conversations with Janna. Thanks again.

Intro:

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The Importance of Legal Assistance in Divorce

Episode 4

Jana Jones is a dedicated family law attorney with extensive experience in the Charlotte and Mint Hill areas. Her focus on family law, compassion, and client commitment helps families navigate the complexities of legal matters with care and understanding. 

Why is practicing family law and focusing on divorce cases vital to you

I view divorce as one of the most profound life changes, akin to experiencing a loss without the finality of death. It marks the end of a significant chapter and the beginning of a new one, which can be incredibly challenging. I take pride in guiding people through this transition and helping them rebuild their lives.

There's often a stereotype about divorce attorneys being overly contentious and fixating on minor disputes, like who gets the kitchen sink or a fork. That’s not my approach. I aim to help people move forward and start fresh, especially when children are involved. To me, the well-being of children is paramount. If we focus our efforts, it should be on ensuring their best interests are protected. Ideally, we aim to minimize conflict and prevent unnecessary trauma for the kids. That's the kind of support I strive to provide.

How do you take tense and emotional couples and get them to a place where they can mediate and discuss their differences in a calm, adult manner?

I'm not a mediator. I'm an attorney representing one party in a case. I advocate for my client's interests based on their goals and needs. While I can provide guidance and tools to my clients, how they choose to communicate with their spouse or soon-to-be ex-spouse is up to them. Ideally, this might help reduce conflict, but my primary responsibility is to protect my client's interests and support their objectives throughout the process.

When you have an initial intake, how does that initial conversation look, and how do you determine which route to take?

The first step is to schedule a consultation. I offer several options to suit the complexity of your case. You can choose between a 30-minute or a one-hour phone consultation, which is the most cost-effective and convenient for many clients. Alternatively, I can provide a one-hour in-person consultation at my office.

During this initial meeting, you will share your situation and goals, and I will provide detailed information about the next steps, potential strategies, and an overview of my approach. I will also discuss the pricing and what it will take to move forward.\

Is a divorce lawyer required for every divorce case?

There is no requirement to hire a divorce attorney for any aspect of divorce, whether it's an uncontested divorce or a contested one involving issues like equitable distribution, alimony, custody, or child support. You can manage these matters on your own if you choose.

However, think of it like this: you might be able to watch a YouTube video and learn how to change your oil, but you’d probably worry about whether you did it correctly and if your car might break down. Similarly, while you can handle a divorce without an attorney, it’s not always the best choice.

People who come to me often have demanding jobs, busy careers, and family commitments. Navigating a DIY divorce, including understanding evidence rules, local regulations, and the right contacts for various issues, can be overwhelming and impractical. So, while it’s possible to handle a divorce independently, having professional guidance usually makes the process smoother and less stressful.

Even if someone feels confident in their ability to handle a DIY divorce, would the time and effort required typically outweigh the benefits of seeking professional assistance?

It’s not a matter of intelligence; it’s about experience. Even if someone is competent in their profession, it doesn’t mean they’ll be successful at something entirely different, like handling a divorce case. There’s a reason professionals specialize in divorce law—it requires extensive knowledge and experience. DIY attempts often miss critical details because you don’t know what you don’t know, which can significantly impact your case. That’s why it's generally wise to at least get a consultation to understand the complexities of your situation before diving in on your own.

Is hiring an attorney necessary when both parties are not contesting matters?

You don't always need an attorney for every case. If a case is straightforward and both parties agree on dividing assets and moving forward, it might be manageable without legal representation. However, I always recommend at least a consultation. You might need to be made aware of everything you could be forfeiting. Even if both parties are amicable, one might have significant assets, like retirement funds, that the other isn't aware they might be entitled to. You could be unknowingly giving up thousands of dollars. Making an informed decision is crucial, and a consultation with an attorney can help you understand the full scope of your assets and liabilities. If you choose to proceed without legal counsel, you can be confident in your decision, knowing precisely what you're giving up.

What happens when one side can afford a very expensive attorney and the other side doesn't have money for an attorney at all?

That can be a challenging situation. As attorneys, we recognize that sometimes clients might struggle to cover legal fees independently. In these cases, family members or friends often help with the costs. My firm is open to accepting payment from someone else on your behalf if you can't afford the legal fees yourself. However, it's essential to acknowledge that attorneys charge for their services. The only genuinely free legal assistance typically comes from legal aid organizations, which usually don’t handle contested divorce cases. So, if you need an attorney, you'll generally need to arrange payment for their services.

  How does the court determine the child's best interest in custody cases?

From the court's perspective, their primary job is to determine the best interest of the child or children involved. The court is not focused on what’s fair to the parents but on what arrangement will provide the most stability and care for the child. The starting point is often a joint custody arrangement, but this may not be practical for various reasons, such as one parent living out of state or far away. The court will examine factors such as which parent has been more involved in the child’s day-to-day life, including attending doctor’s appointments, PTA meetings, and extracurricular activities. The goal is establishing a custody arrangement that best serves the child's needs and provides stability.

What happens in razor-thin cases where who can best provide for the child is only apparent? After some time

 In cases where it's not clear who can best provide for the child, a joint custody arrangement is generally considered the best option. Suppose the parents live close to each other, within the same school district, and both are actively involved in the child's life, such as participating in extracurricular activities, attending doctor’s appointments, and contributing to school needs. In that case, the court's default position is often joint custody.

What are the logistical limits to joint custody? Is there a point where it’s too far for it to be practical?

Joint custody becomes impractical when the parents live so far apart that one parent can’t get the child to school on time daily. However, suppose the parents live close enough, within the same city or a short commute away. In that case, the court will likely consider joint custody a viable option, provided it doesn't lead to school absences or tardiness.

 How does the situation change when one of the children is in high school and can drive?

 When children are old enough to drive, judges often consider their preferences more seriously. While the court will listen to what the child wants, it doesn’t mean they will get precisely what they want. However, because older children have more autonomy, the court gives significant weight to their preferences when determining custody, especially since it’s hard to enforce a custody arrangement if the child is resistant.

 At what age does a child’s preference become a significant factor in custody decisions?

There isn’t a strict age limit, but typically, judges may start considering a child's preference around the age of 12. The court assesses the child's maturity and asks to understand their true wishes while also being cautious of any potential coaching by a parent. Generally, children around 12 or older may be consulted in chambers to express their preferences.

 How fluid are custody arrangements? Are there check-ins or ways to modify them over time?

The court does not monitor custody arrangements after the order is made. The court is only aware of an issue if someone files for a modification or someone files a motion for contempt. If life circumstances change, such as needing to adjust the time or place of custody exchanges, parties can agree on modifications in writing, which can be done through email or text. This written agreement can help protect against future disputes, but the official court order remains unchanged unless formally modified by the court.

What makes my firm different when handling these types of cases is the combination of my background and experience. 

As a child of divorce and a second wife, I bring a personal perspective to my practice that gives me unique insights into family dynamics. I’ve been practicing family law since 2009, and I offer a flat fee structure, which is rare in this field. This means my clients pay upfront based on the stage or type of case, without the burden of ongoing hourly charges, allowing them to focus on their case without the added financial stress.

What is your major takeaway for viewers and listeners?

 The major takeaway is to get a consultation. This initial step is the best investment you can make, as it helps you understand the legal landscape and how it applies to your situation. Even if you decide not to hire an attorney, a consultation ensures you are informed and can make the best decisions moving forward.